Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers

 

                          Table of Contents

 

                             Introduction

 

   God, spiritual life--those were such vague terms to me before I met Srila Prabhupada. I have always been interested in religion, but before I met the Krsna conscious devotees, somehow I did not have the proper perspective needed to inquire fruitfully about spiritual life. The existence of a Creator is only common sense--but who is God? Who am I? I had been to Hebrew School and had studied Oriental philosophy, but I could never get satisfying answers to my questions.

   I first heard the Hare Krsna mantra in Greenwich Village, New York, in late 1968.

 

                        hare krsna hare krsna

                        krsna krsna hare hare

                         hare rama hare rama

                         rama rama hare hare

 

   The chanting was captivating, and it made me feel very comfortable. The mantra stuck in my mind, and I soon regretted that I had not taken a magazine from the devotees. As explained to me later, a transcendental seed had been planted that could eventually ripen into love of Godhead.

   Several months later, I came across a card with the Hare Krsna mantra on it. The card promised, "Chant these names of God, and your life will be sublime!" I would occasionally chant, and I found that the mantra did, in fact, give me a feeling of peace of mind.

   After graduating from college with a B.S. in chemistry, I joined the Peace Corps in 1971 and went to India as a science teacher. In India I inquired about the Hare Krsna movement. I was attracted by the chanting and intrigued by the philosophy, and I was curious about the movement's authenticity. I had visited the Krsna temple in New York several times before going to India, but I did not consider the seemingly austere life of a devotee for myself.

   In India I first met the Krsna conscious devotees at a festival they were holding in Calcutta during October of 1971. The devotees explained to me the purpose of yoga and the need to inquire about spiritual life. I began to feel that the rituals and ceremonies they practiced were not dull, sentimental obligations, but a real, sensible way of life.

   At first, however, it was very difficult for me to understand the philosophy of Krsna consciousness. In so many subtle ways, my Western upbringing prevented me from seeing things that were as plain as the nose on my face! Fortunately the devotees convinced me of the need to practice some few basic austerities, and in this way I began to gain some insight into spiritual life. I can now recall how distant and tenuous were my concepts of spirituality and transcendental existence. I met Srila Prabhupada briefly at this time--in November of 1971--and shortly thereafter I decided to become a vegetarian. (I was proud of being a vegetarian, but later Srila Prabhupada reminded me that even pigeons are, too.)

   In February of 1972, I met some devotees in Calcutta who invited me to a festival in Mayapur (a holy island ninety miles to the north). The festival was to be held in honor of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who is considered an incarnation of Krsna Himself. I had then been planning a trip to Nepal, but the Peace Corps denied me permission to leave India, and so I went to Mayapur.

   I left for Mayapur planning to stay for two days at the most, but I ended up staying a week. I was the only Western nondevotee on the island, and since I was living with the devotees on their land, this was a unique opportunity to learn intimately about Krsna consciousness.

   On the third day of the festival, I was invited in to see Srila Prabhupada. He was living in a small hut--half-brick and half-thatched, with two or three pieces of simple furniture. Srila Prabhupada asked me to be seated and then asked how I was and whether I had any questions. The devotees had explained to me that Srila Prabhupada could answer my questions because he represents a disciplic succession of spiritual masters. I thought that Srila Prabhupada might really know what is going on in the world. After all, his devotees claimed this, and I admired and respected them. So with this in mind I began to ask my questions. Inadvertently, I had approached a guru, or spiritual master, in the prescribed way--by submissively asking questions about spiritual life.

   Srila Prabhupada seemed pleased with me, and over the next several days, he answered my questions. I asked them mostly from an academic point of view, but he always gave me personal answers so that I would actually spiritualize my life. His answers were logical, scientific, satisfying and amazingly lucid. Before I met Srila Prabhupada and his disciples, spiritual life was always obscure and nebulous. But the discussions with Srila Prabhupada were realistic, clear and exciting! Srila Prabhupada was patiently trying to help me understand that Krsna--God--is the supreme enjoyer, supreme friend and supreme proprietor. I put forward many impediments to accepting the obvious: that I would have to become serious about God consciousness to understand God. But Srila Prabhupada relentlessly yet kindly urged me on. Even though I had little ability to express myself, Srila Prabhupada understood my every inquiry and answered perfectly.

                                                             Bob Cohen

                                                       August 14, 1974

 

                             Chapter One

                      Krsna, the All-Attractive

                          February 27, 1972

 

                      Krsna, the All-Attractive

 

Bob: What is a scientist?

Srila Prabhupada: One who knows things as they are.

Bob: He thinks he knows things as they are.

Srila Prabhupada: What?

Bob: He hopes he knows things as they are.

Srila Prabhupada: No, he is supposed to know. We approach the scientist because he is supposed to know things correctly. A scientist means one who knows things as they are. Krsna means "all-attractive."

Bob: All-attractive.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. So unless God is all-attractive, how can He be God? A man is important when he is attractive. Is it not?

Bob: It is so.

Srila Prabhupada: So, God must be attractive and attractive for all. Therefore, if God has any name, or if you want to give any name to God, only "Krsna" can be given.

Bob: But why only the name Krsna?

Srila Prabhupada: Because He's all-attractive. Krsna means"all-attractive."

Bob: Oh, I see.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. God has no name, but by His qualities we give Him names. If a man is very beautiful, we call him "beautiful." If a man is very intelligent, we call him "wise.' So the name is given according to the quality. Because God is all-attractive, the name Krsna can be applied only to Him. Krsna means "all-attractive." It includes everything.

Bob: But what about a name meaning "all-powerful"?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.... Unless you are powerful, how can you be all-attractive?

Syamasundara: [an American devotee, Srila Prabhupada's secretary] It includes everything.

Srila Prabhupada: Everything. He must be very beautiful, He must be very wise, He must be very powerful, He must be very famous...

Bob: Is Krsna attractive to rascals?

Srila Prabhupada: Oh, yes! He was the greatest rascal also.

Bob: How is that?

Srila Prabhupada: [laughing] Because He was always teasing the gopis.

Syamasundara: Teasing?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Sometimes when Radharani would go out, Krsna would attack Her, and when She would fall down--"Krsna, don't torture Me in that way"--They would fall down, and Krsna would take the opportunity and kiss Her. [He laughs.] So, Radharani was very pleased, but superficially Krsna was the greatest rascal. So unless rascaldom is in Krsna, how could rascaldom be existent in the world? Our formula of God is that He is the source of everything. Unless rascaldom is in Krsna, how can it be manifest... because He is the source of everything. But His rascaldom is so nice that everyone worships His rascaldom.

Bob: What about the rascals who are not so nice?

Srila Prabhupada: No, rascaldom is not nice, but Krsna is absolute. He is God. Therefore His rascaldom is also good. Krsna is all-good. God is good.

Bob: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: Therefore, when He becomes a rascal, that is also good. That is Krsna. Rascaldom is not good, but when it is practiced by Krsna, because He is absolutely good, that rascaldom is also good. This one has to understand.

Bob: Are there some people who do not find Krsna attractive?

Srila Prabhupada: No. All people will find Him attractive. Who is not attracted? just give an example: "This man or this living entity is not attracted to Krsna."Just find such a person.

Bob: Somebody who wishes to do things in life that he may feel are wrong but who wishes to gain power or prestige or money...

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob:... may find God unattractive. He may not find God attractive, because God gives him guilt.

Srila Prabhupada: No, not God. His attraction is to become powerful. A man wants to become powerful or rich--is it not? But nobody is richer than Krsna. Therefore Krsna is attractive to him.

Bob: If a person who wants to become rich prays to Krsna, will he become rich?

Srila Prabhupada: Oh, yes!

Bob: He can become rich through this means?

Srila Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Because Krsna is all-powerful, if you pray to Krsna to become rich, Krsna will make you rich.

Bob: If somebody lives an evil life but prays to become rich, he may still become rich?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Praying to Krsna is not evil.

Bob: Oh, yes.

Srila Prabhupada: [chuckling] Somehow or other he prays to Krsna, so you cannot say that he is evil.

Bob: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita, api cet suduracaro bhajate mam ananya-bhak. Have you read it?

Bob: Yes. The Sanskrit I don't know, but the English I do.

Srila Prabhupada: Hm-m.

Bob: "Even if the most evil man prays to Me..."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: "... He will be elevated."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as he begins to pray to Krsna, that is not evil. Therefore He is all-attractive. It is said in the Vedas that the Absolute Truth, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is the reservoir of all pleasure--raso vai sah. Everyone is hankering after someone because he realizes some mellow in it.

Bob: Excuse me?

Srila Prabhupada: Some mellow. Suppose a man is drinking. Why is he drinking? He is getting some mellow out of that drinking. A man is hankering after money because by possessing money he gets a mellow out of it.

Bob: What does mellow mean?

Srila Prabhupada: [to Syamasundara] How do they define mellow?

Syamasundara: Taste, pleasure.

Bob: OK.

Srila Prabhupada: Pleasing taste. So the Vedas say, raso vai sah. The exact translation of mellow is rasa. [Malati, Syamasundara's wife, enters with a tray of food] What is that?

Malati: Eggplant, fried.

Srila Prabhupada: Oh! All-attractive! All-attractive! [Laughter.]

Syamasundara: How is Krsna the greatest scientist?

Srila Prabhupada: Because He knows everything. A scientist is one who knows a subject matter thoroughly. He is a scientist. Krsna--He knows everything.

Bob: I am presently a science teacher.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, teaching. But, unless you have perfect knowledge, how can you teach? That is our question.

Bob: Without perfect knowledge, though, you can teach--

Srila Prabhupada: That is cheating; that is not teaching. That is cheating. Just like the scientists say, "There was a chunk... and the creation took place. Perhaps. Maybe..." What is this? Simply cheating! It is not teaching; it is cheating.

Bob: Let me repeat what you said this morning--that was interesting. I asked about miracles, and you said that only a fool would believe in miracles because--let us say you are a child and an adult lifts this table. That's a miracle. Or you're a chemist and you combine acid and base and you make smoke, an explosion or whatever. To somebody ignorant, that's a miracle. But for everything there is a process, and so when you see a miracle, it's just ignorance of the process. So that only a fool would believe in miracles, and--you correct me if I say wrong...

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Bob: You said when Jesus came the people then were somewhat more ignorant and needed miracles as aid. I wasn't sure if that's quite what you said.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Miracles are for the ignorant.

Bob: I had asked this in relation to all the miracle men you hear about in India.

Srila Prabhupada: Krsna is the highest miracle man.

Bob: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: That is stated by Kunti...

Bob: Without perfect knowledge, can I not teach some things? For example, I may--

Srila Prabhupada: You can teach up to the point you know.

Bob: Yes, but I should not claim to teach more than I know.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is cheating.

Syamasundara: In other words, he can't teach the truth with partial knowledge.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. That is not possible for any human being. A human being has imperfect senses. So how can he teach perfect knowledge? Suppose you see the sun as a disc. You have no means to approach the sun. If you say that we can see the sun by telescope and this and that, they are also made by you, and you are imperfect. So how can your machine be perfect? Therefore, your knowledge of the sun is imperfect. So don't teach about the sun unless you have perfect knowledge. That is cheating.

Bob: But what about to teach that it is supposed that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away?

Srila Prabhupada: As soon as you say "it is supposed," it is not scientific.

Bob: But I think that almost all science, then, is not scientific.

Srila Prabhupada: That is the point!

Bob: All science is based on, you know, suppositions of this or that.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. They are teaching imperfectly. Just like they are advertising so much about the moon. Do you think their knowledge is perfect?

Bob: No.

Srila Prabhupada: Then?

Bob: What is the proper duty of the teacher in society? Let us say a science teacher. What should he be doing in the classroom?

Srila Prabhupada: Classroom? You should simply teach about Krsna.

Bob: He should not teach about...

Srila Prabhupada: No. That will include everything. His aim should be to know Krsna.

Bob: Can a scientist teach the science of combining acid and alkaline, and this kind of science, with Krsna as its object?

Srila Prabhupada: How can it be?

Bob: If you--when one studies science, one finds general tendencies of nature, and these general tendencies of nature point to a controlling force....

Srila Prabhupada: That I was explaining the other day. I asked one chemist whether, according to chemical formulas, hydrogen and oxygen linked together become water. Do they not?

Bob: It's true.

Srila Prabhupada: Now, there is a vast amount of water in the Atlantic Ocean and Pacific Ocean. What quantity of chemicals was required?

Bob: How much?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. How many tons?

Bob: Many!

Srila Prabhupada: So who supplied it?

Bob: This was supplied by God.

Srila Prabhupada: Somebody must have supplied it.

Bob: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: So that is science. You can teach like that.

Bob: Should one bother teaching that if you combine acid and alkaline they form a neutral?

Srila Prabhupada: The same thing. There are so many effervescents. So, who is performing it? Who is supplying the acid and alkaline? [There is a long pause.]

Bob: So this comes from the same source as the water.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. You cannot manufacture water unless you have hydrogen and oxygen. So, here is a vast--not only this Atlantic or Pacific: there are millions of planets, and there are millions of Atlantic and Pacific oceans. So who created this water with hydrogen and oxygen, and how was it supplied? That is our question. Somebody must have supplied it, otherwise how has it come into existence?

Bob: But should it also be taught how you make water from hydrogen and oxygen? The procedure of burning them together--should this also be taught? That is, you burn hydrogen and oxygen together...

Srila Prabhupada: That is secondary. That is not very difficult. Just like Malati made this puri [a kind of bread]. So, there is flour, and there is ghee [clarified butter], and she made a puri. But unless there is ghee and flour, where is the chance of making a puri? In the Bhagavad-gita there is this statement: "Water, earth, air, fire--they are My energies." What is your body? This external body--that is your energy. Do you know that? Your body is made out of your energy. For example, I am eating...

Bob: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: So I am creating some energy, and therefore my body is maintained.

Bob: Oh, I see.

Srila Prabhupada: So therefore your body is made out of your energy.

Bob: But when you eat the food, there is energy from the sun in the food.

Srila Prabhupada: So, I am giving an example. I am creating some energy by digesting the food, and that is maintaining my body. If your energy supply is not proper, then your body becomes weak or unhealthy. Your body is made out of your own energy. Similarly, this gigantic cosmic body--the universe--is made of Krsna's energy. How can you deny it? As your body is made out of your energy, similarly the universal body must be made by somebody's energy. That is Krsna. [There is a long pause.]

Bob: I'll have to think about it to follow that.

Srila Prabhupada: What is to follow? It is a fact. [He laughs.] Your hair is growing daily. Why? Because you have some energy.

Bob: The energy I obtain from my food.

Srila Prabhupada: Somehow or other you have obtained that energy! And through that energy your hair is growing. So if your body is manufactured by your energy, similarly the whole gigantic manifestation is made of God's energy. It is a fact! It is not your energy.

Bob: Yes. Oh, I see that.

A devotee: Just like--aren't the planets in this universe the sun's energy--a product of the sun's energy?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, but who produced the sun? That is Krsna's energy. Because it is heat, and Krsna says, bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh: "Heat--that is My energy." The sun is the representation of the heating energy of Krsna. It is not your energy. You cannot say, "The sun is made by me." But somebody must have made it, and Krsna says that He did. So, we believe Krsna. Therefore we are Krsna-ites.

Bob: Krsna-ites?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Our knowledge is perfect. If I say that heat is the energy of Krsna, you cannot deny it, because it is not your energy. In your body there is some certain amount of heat. Similarly, heat is someone's energy. And who is that person? That is Krsna. Krsna says, "Yes, it is My energy." So my knowledge is perfect. Because I take the version of the greatest scientist, I am the greatest scientist. I may be a fool personally, but because I take knowledge from the greatest scientist, I am the greatest scientist. I have no difficulty.

Bob: Excuse me?

Srila Prabhupada: I have no difficulty in becoming the greatest scientist because I take the knowledge from the greatest scientist. [There is a long pause.] "This earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and ego--they are My eight separated energies."

Bob: They are separated energies?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Just like this milk. What is this milk? The separated energy of the cow. [Syamasundara and Bob, stunned, laugh in realization.] Is it not? It is the manifestation of the separated energy of the cow.

Syamasundara: Is it like a by-product?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: So, what is the significance of this energy's being separated from Krsna?

Srila Prabhupada: "Separated" means that this is made out of the body of the cow but it is not the cow. That is separation.

Bob: So, this earth and all is made out of Krsna but it is not Krsna?

Srila Prabhupada: It is not Krsna. Or, you can say, Krsna and not Krsna simultaneously. That is our philosophy. One and different. You cannot say that these things are different from Krsna, because without Krsna they have no existence. At the same time, you cannot say, "Then let me worship water. Why Krsna? The pantheists say that because everything is God, whatever we do is God worship. This is Mayavada philosophy--that because everything is made of God, therefore everything is God. But our philosophy is that everything is God but also not God.

Bob: So what on earth is God? Is there anything on earth that is God?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Because everything is made out of the energy of God. But that does not mean that by worshiping anything you are worshiping God.

Bob: So what is on earth that is not maya [illusion]? It is...

Srila Prabhupada: Maya means "energy."

Bob: It means energy?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Maya--and another meaning is "illusion." So foolish persons accept the energy as the energetic. That is maya. Just like sunshine. Sunshine enters your room. Sunshine is the energy of the sun. But because the sunshine enters your room, you cannot say that the sun

Srila Prabhupada: Just wire.

Bob: So if I build a statue of Krsna, it is not Krsna unless...

Srila Prabhupada: It is Krsna. But you have to know the process of understanding that it is Krsna. It is Krsna.

Bob: It is not just earth and mud.

Srila Prabhupada: No. Earth has no separate existence without Krsna. Krsna says, "My energy." You cannot separate the energy from the energetic. It is not possible. You cannot separate heat from fire. But fire is different from the heat, and heat is different from the fire. You are taking heat; that does not mean you are touching fire. Fire, in spite of emanating heat, keeps its identity. Similarly, although Krsna, by His different energies, is creating everything, He remains Krsna. The Mayavadi philosophers think that if Krsna is everything, then Krsna's separate identity is lost. That is material thinking. For example, by drinking this milk, little by little, when I finish, there is no more milk; it has gone to my belly. Krsna is not like that. He is omnipotent. We are utilizing His energy continually; still He is there, present. Just like a man begetting children unlimitedly, but the man is there. A crude example. It's not that because he has produced hundreds of children, he is finished. So, similarly, God or Krsna, in spite of His unlimited number of children, is there.

 

                        purnasya purnam adaya

                         purnam evavasisyate

 

   "Because He is the complete whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance." This is Krsna consciousness. Krsna is never finished. Krsna is so powerful. Therefore He is all-attractive. This is one side of the display of Krsna's energy. Similarly, He has unlimited energies. This study of Krsna's energy is only one side, or a portion only. So in this way, if you go on studying Krsna, that is Krsna consciousness. It is not a bogus thing--"maybe," "perhaps not." Absolutely! It is!

Syamasundara: And the study itself is never finished.

Srila Prabhupada: No. How can it be? Krsna has unlimited energy.

 

                             Chapter Two

                   Vedic Culture: Varnasrama-dharma

                          February 28, 1972

 

                   Vedic Culture: Varnasrama-dharma

 

Bob: I've asked devotees about how they feel towards sex in their relations, and I see the way they feel, but I can't see myself acting the same way. See, I'll be getting married at the end of this summer.

Srila Prabhupada: Hm-m?

Bob: I'll be getting married at the end of this summer, in September or August when I return to America. And the devotees say that the householders only have sex to conceive a child, and I cannot picture myself at all in such a position, and--What kind of sex life can one lead, living in the material world?

Srila Prabhupada: The Vedic principle is that one should avoid sex life altogether. The whole Vedic principle is to get liberation from material bondage. There are different attachments for material enjoyment, of which sex life is the topmost enjoyment. The Bhagavatam says that this material world...

 

                  pumsah striya mithuni-bhavam etam

 

   Man is attached to woman, and woman is attached to man. Not only in human society--in animal society also. That attachment is the basic principle of material life. So, a woman is hankering or seeking after the association of a man, and a man is hankering or seeking for the association of a woman. All the fiction novels, dramas, cinema and even ordinary advertisements that you see simply depict the attachment between man and woman. Even in the tailor's shop you will find in the window some woman and some man.

 

                        pravrttir esa bhutanam

                        nivrttis tu mahaphalam

 

   So this attachment is already there.

Bob: Attachment between man and woman?

Srila Prabhupada: Man and woman. So if you want to get liberation from this material world, then that attachment should be reduced to nil. Otherwise, simply further attachment--You will have to take rebirth, either as a human being or as a demigod or as an animal, as a serpent, as a bird, as a beast. You will have to take birth. So, this basic principle of increasing attachment is not our business, although it is the general tendency. Grha, ksetra, suta [home, land, sons]. But if one can reduce and stop it, that is first class. Therefore our Vedic system is to first of all train a boy as a brahmacari--no sex life. The Vedic principle is to reduce attachment, not to increase it. Therefore the whole system is called varnasrama-dharma. The Indian system calls for varna and asrama--four social orders and four spiritual orders. Brahmacarya [celibate student life], grhastha [married life], vanaprastha [retired life] and sannyasa [renounced life]--these are the spiritual orders. And the social orders consist of brahmanas [intellectuals], ksatriyas [administrators], vaisyas [merchants and farmers] and sudras [ordinary workers]. So under this system, the regulative principles are so nice that

   even if one has the tendency to enjoy material life, he is so nicely molded that at last he achieves liberation and goes back home, back to Godhead. This is the process. So sex life is not required, but because we are attached to it, therefore there are some regulative principles under which it is maintained.

   [chanting starts somewhere in the background, with exotic mrdanga drumbeats amidst laughing and the loud blowing of horns.]

Srila Prabhupada: It is said in Srimad-Bhagavatam that--

 

                  pumsah striya mithuni-bhavam etam

                   tayor mitho hrdaya-granthim ahuh

                   ato grha-ksetra-sutapta-vittair

                    janasya moho 'yam aham mameti

 

                                                        (Bhag. 5.5.8)

   This sex life is the basic principle of material life--attachment for man or woman. And when they are united, when a man and woman are united, that attachment becomes increased, and that increased attachment will induce one to accumulate grha (a home), ksetra (land), suta (children), apta (friendship or society) and vitta. Vita means money. In this way--grha-ksetra-sutapta-vittaih--he becomes entangled. janasya moho 'yam: this is the illusion. And by this illusion he thinks, aham mameti: "I am this body, and anything in relationship with this body is mine."

Bob: What is that again?

Srila Prabhupada: This attachment increases. The material attachment involves thinking, "I am this body, and because I have this body in a particular place, that is my country." And that is going on: "I am American, I am Indian, I am German, I am this, I am that--this body. This is my country. I shall sacrifice everything for my country and society." So in this way, the illusion increases. And under this illusion, when he dies he gets another body. That may be a superior body or inferior body, according to his karma. So if he gets a superior body, then that is also an entanglement, even if he goes to the heavenly planets. But if he becomes a cat or dog, then his life is lost. Or a tree--there is every chance of it. So this science is not known in the world--how the soul is transmigrating from one body to another, and how he is being entrapped in different types of bodies. This science is unknown. Therefore when Arjuna was speaking--"If I kill my brother, if I kill my grandfather on the other side..."--he was simply thinking on the basis of the bodily concept of life. But when his problems could not be solved, he surrendered to Krsna and accepted Him as spiritual master. And when Krsna became his spiritual master, He chastised Arjuna in the beginning:

 

                        asocyan anvasocas tvam

                       prajna-vadams ca bhasase

                         gatasun agatasums ca

                         nanusocanti panditah

 

   "You are talking like a learned man, but you are fool number one because you are talking about the bodily concept of life." So this sex life increases the bodily concept of life. Therefore, the whole process is to reduce it to nil.

Bob: To reduce it over the stages of your life?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Reduce it. A boy is trained as a student up to twenty-five years, restricting sex life. Brahmacari. So, some of the boys remain naisthika-brahmacari [celibate for life]. Because they are given education and they become fully conversant with spiritual knowledge, they don't want to marry. That is also restricted--he cannot have sex life without being married. Therefore in human society there is marriage, not in animal society.

   But people are gradually descending from human society to animal society. They are forgetting marriage. That is also predicted in the sastras. Dampatye 'bhirucir hetuh: in the Kali-yuga [the present age of quarrel], eventually there will be no marriage performances; the boy and the girl will simply agree to live together, and their relationship will exist on sexual power. If the man or the woman is deficient in sex life, then there is divorce. So, for this philosophy there are many Western philosophers like Freud and others who have written so many books. But according to Vedic culture, we are interested in sex only for begetting children, that's all. Not to study the psychology of sex life. There is already natural psychology for that. Even if one does not read any philosophy, he is sexually inclined. Nobody is taught it in the schools and colleges. Everyone already knows how to do it. [He laughs.] That is the general tendency. But education should be given to stop it. That is real education. [There is a long pause, filled with the sound of bicycle horns, children playing, and throngs of people calling to one another]

Bob: Presently, in America, that's a radical concept.

Srila Prabhupada: Well, in America there are so many things that require reformation, and this Krsna consciousness movement will bring that. I went to your country and saw that the boys and girls were living like friends, so I said to my students, "You cannot live together as friends; you must get yourselves married."

Bob: Many people see that even marriage is not sacred, so they find no desire to marry. Because people get married, and if things are not proper, they get a divorce so very easily--

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that also.

Bob:--that some people feel that to get married is not meaningful.

Srila Prabhupada: No, their idea is that marriage is for legalized prostitution. They think like that, but that is not marriage. Even that Christian paper--what is that? Watch--?

Syamasundara: Watchtower?

Srila Prabhupada: Watchtower. It has criticized that one priest has allowed a marriage between two men--homosexuality. So these things are all going on. They take it purely for prostitution, that's all. So therefore people are thinking, "What is the use of keeping a regular prostitute at such heavy expenditure? Better not to have this."

Syamasundara: You use that example of the cow and the market.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes--when the milk is available in the marketplace, what is the use of keeping a cow? [Everyone laughs.] It is a very abominable condition in the Western countries--I have seen it. Here also in India, gradually it is coming. Therefore we have started this Krsna consciousness movement to educate people in the essential principles of spiritual life. It is not a sectarian religious movement. It is a cultural movement for everyone's benefit.

 

                            Chapter Three

                        The Real Goal of life

                    February 28, 1972 (continued)

 

                        The Real Goal of life

 

Srila Prabhupada: This movement is especially meant to enable a human being to reach the real goal of life.

Bob: The real goal... ?

Srila Prabhupada: The real goal of life.

Bob: Is the real goal of life to know God?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. To go back home, back to Godhead. That is the real goal of life. The water that comes from the sea forms clouds, the clouds fall down as rain, and the actual goal is to flow down the river and again enter the sea. So, we have come from God, and now we are embarrassed by material life. Therefore, our aim should be to get out of this embarrassing situation and go back home, back to Godhead. This is the real goal of life.

 

                        mam upetya punar janma

                        duhkhalayam asasvatam

                        napnuvanti mahatmanah

                       samsiddhim paramam gatah

 

   ["After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogis in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection."] That is the version of Bhagavad-gita. If anyone comes to Me--mam upetya: he does not come back again. Where? To this place--duhkhalayam asasvatam. This place is the abode of miseries. Everyone knows, but they have been befooled by so-called leaders. Material life is miserable life. Krsna says, God says, that this place is duhkhalayam--it is a place of miseries. And it is also asasvatam, temporary. You cannot make a compromise: "All right, let it be miserable. I shall remain here as an American or Indian." No. That also you cannot do. You cannot remain an American. You may think that, having been born in America, you are very happy. But you cannot remain an American for long. You will have to be kicked out of that place. And your next life you do not know! Therefore, it is duhkhalayam asasvatam--miserable and temporary. That is our philosophy.

Bob: But when you have some knowledge of God, then life is not so miserable?

Srila Prabhupada: No! Some knowledge will not do. You must have perfect knowledge.

 

                       janma karma ca me divyam

                       evam yo vetti tattvatah

 

   Tattvatah means "perfectly." Perfect knowledge is being taught in Bhagavad-gita. So, we are giving everyone in human society a chance to learn Bhagavad-gita as it is and make his life perfect. That is the Krsna consciousness movement. What does your science say about the transmigration of the soul?

Bob: I think... that science... cannot deny or affirm it. Science does not know it.

Srila Prabhupada: Therefore I say that science is imperfect.

Bob: Science may. though, say something. It is said in science that energy is never destroyed; it is changed.

Srila Prabhupada: That's all right. But how the energy is working in the future--that science does not know. How is the energy diverted? How, by different manipulations, is the energy working differently? For instance, electrical energy. By different handling it is operating the heats and it is operating the refrigerator. They are just the opposite, but the electrical energy is the same. Similarly, this energy--living energy--how is it being directed? Which way is it going? How is it fructifying in the next life? That they do not know. But in Bhagavad-gita it is very simply stated.

 

                     vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya

 

   You are covered by a dress, by a shirt. When this shirt is unusable, you change it. Similarly, this body is just like a shirt and coat. When it is no longer workable, we have to change it.

Bob: What is the "we" that has to change? What is constant?

Srila Prabhupada: That is the soul.

Bob: From one life to the next?

Srila Prabhupada: That is the soul--I. What "you" is speaking? You! What "I" is speaking? Identity: atma, or soul.

Bob: My soul is different from your soul?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. You are an individual soul, I am an individual soul.

Bob: You have removed yourself from karmic influences. If I was to remove myself from karmic influences, would our souls be the same or different?

Srila Prabhupada: The soul is of the same quality in all. You are under a certain conception of life at the present moment, and these countrymen of yours [the Krsna conscious devotees] were under a certain conception of life, but by training they have taken to another conception of life. So the ultimate training is how to become Krsna conscious. That is the perfection.

Bob: If two people are Krsna conscious, is their soul the same?

Srila Prabhupada: The soul is always the same.

Bob: In each person? In each person is it the same?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: [pointing to two devotees] If these two are Krsna conscious, are their souls the same?

Srila Prabhupada: The soul is the same but always individual, even if one is not Krsna conscious. For instance, you are a human being, and I am a human being. Even if I am not a Christian, even if you are not a Hindu, still we are human beings. Similarly, the soul may not be Krsna conscious, or he may be Krsna conscious--it doesn't matter. But the soul is the soul.

Bob: Can you tell me more about this?

Srila Prabhupada: Soul--as pure spirit, all souls are equal. Even in an animal. Therefore it is said, panditah sama-darsinah: those who are actually learned do not see the outward covering, either in a human being or in an animal.

Bob: If I may ask another question on this?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: I have considered the soul somewhat as part of God. At times I think I feel God. I'm here, and you may say God is here. So if the soul is inside me, then should I be able to feel God inside me? Not all of God, I mean, but a...

Srila Prabhupada: Part of God.

Bob: But I don't feel God in me, but God may be here, separate--separate from me. But should I be able to feel God inside me, since my soul is Part of God?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. God is inside also. God is everywhere. God is inside and outside also. This is to be known.

Bob: How do you feel God inside you?

Srila Prabhupada: Not in the beginning, but you have to know from the sastras [scriptures], by the Vedic information. For example, in the Bhagavad-gita it is said, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati: God is there in everyone's heart. Paramanu-cayantara-stham: God is also within every atom. So this is the first information. And then, by the yogic process, you have to realize it.

Bob: Yogic process?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: Is chanting Hare Krsna such a yogic process?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, it is also a yogic process.

Bob: What kind of yogic process must I do to find out--to feel this information--to feel the soul inside?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, there are many different yogic Processes, but for this age this process is very nice.

Bob: Chanting.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: Through this I can feel not only God outside but God inside?

Srila Prabhupada: You'll understand everything of God--how God is inside, how God is outside, how God is working. Everything will be revealed. By this attitude of service, God will reveal Himself. You cannot understand God by your endeavor. Only if God reveals Himself. For instance, when the sun is out of your sight at night, you cannot see it by your torchlight, or any light. But in the morning you can see the sun automatically. without any torchlight. Similarly, you have to create a situation--you have to put yourself in a situation--in which God will be revealed. It is not that by some method you can ask God, "Please come. I will see You." No, God is not your order carrier.

Bob: You must please God for Him to reveal Himself. Is that correct?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: How do we know when we are pleasing God?

Srila Prabhupada: When we see Him. Then you will understand. Just as, when you eat, you do not require to ask anyone whether you are feeling strength or your hunger is satisfied. If you eat, you understand that you are feeling energy. You don't need to inquire from anyone. Similarly. if you actually serve God, then you will understand, "God is dictating to me. God is there. I am seeing God."

A devotee: Or God's representative.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: It comes easier.

Srila Prabhupada: You have to go through God's representative.

 

                   yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah

 

   "By the mercy of the spiritual master one is benedicted by the mercy of Krsna." If you please God's representative, then automatically God becomes pleased, and thus you can directly see Him.

An Indian gentleman: How to please God's representative?

Srila Prabhupada: You have to carry out his orders, that's all. God's representative is the guru. He asks you to do this, to do that--if you do that, that is pleasing.

 

                   yasyaprasadan na gatih kuto 'pi

 

   "Without the grace of the spiritual master one cannot make any advancement." If you displease him, then you are nowhere. Therefore we worship the guru.

 

                  saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair

                   uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhih

                  kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya

                    vande guroh sri-caranaravindam

 

   ["The spiritual master is to be honored as much as the Supreme Lord because of his being the most confidential servitor of the Lord. This is acknowledged by all revealed scriptures and is followed by all authorities. Therefore I offer my respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of such a spiritual master, who is a bona fide representative of Lord Krsna."] The guru should be accepted as God. That is the injunction of all sastra.

Bob: The guru should be accepted as a representative of God?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, the guru is God's representative. The guru is the external manifestation of Krsna.

Bob: But different from the incarnations of Krsna that come?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: In what way is the external manifestation of the guru different from the external manifestation of, let us say, Krsna or Caitanya when They come to earth?

Srila Prabhupada: The guru is the representative of Krsna. So there are symptoms of who is a guru. The general symptoms are described in the Vedas.

 

               tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet

                 samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham

 

   A guru must come in a disciplic succession, and he must have heard thoroughly about the Vedas from his spiritual master. Generally a guru's symptom is that he is a perfect devotee, that's all. And he serves Krsna by preaching His message.

Bob: Lord Caitanya--He was a different type of guru than you are?

Srila Prabhupada: No, no. Gurus cannot be of different types. All gurus are of one type.

Bob: But He was--was He also an incarnation at the same time?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, He is Krsna Himself, but He is representing the guru.

Bob: I... I see.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: And then...

Srila Prabhupada: Because Krsna was God, He demanded:

 

                       sarva-dharman parityajya

                        mam ekam saranam vraja

 

   "Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me." But people misunderstood Him. Therefore Krsna again came as a guru and taught people how to surrender to Krsna.

Syamasundara: Doesn't He say in Bhagavad-gita, "I am the spiritual master"?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, He is the original spiritual master because He was accepted as spiritual master by Arjuna. So what is the difficulty? Sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam tvam prapannam. Arjuna told the Lord, "I am Your disciple, and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me." So unless He is a spiritual master how does Arjuna become His disciple? He is the original guru. Tene brahma hrda ya adi-kavaye: "It is He only who first imparted Vedic knowledge unto the heart of Brahma, the first created being." Therefore He is the original guru.

Bob: Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. He is the original guru. Then His disciple Brahma is a guru, then his disciple Narada is a guru, then his disciple Vyasa is a guru--in this way there is a guru-parampara [disciplic succession of gurus]. Evam parampara-praptam: the transcendental knowledge is received through the disciplic succession.

Bob: So a guru receives his knowledge through the disciplic succession, not directly from Krsna? Do you receive some knowledge directly from Krsna?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna's direct instruction is there: Bhagavad-gita.

Bob: I see, but...

Srila Prabhupada: But you have to learn it through the disciplic succession, otherwise you will misunderstand it.

Bob: But presently you do not receive information directly from Krsna? It comes through the disciplic succession from the books?

Srila Prabhupada: There is no difference. Suppose I say that this is a pencil. If you say to him, "There is a pencil," and if he says to another man, "This is a pencil," then what is the difference between his instruction and my instructions?

Bob: Krsna's mercy allows you to know this now?

Srila Prabhupada: You can take Krsna's mercy also, provided it is delivered as it is. Just as we are teaching Bhagavad-gita In Bhagavad-gita Krsna says:

 

                       sarva-dharman parityajya

                        mam ekam saranam vraja

 

   "Just give up all other forms of religion and simply surrender unto Me." Now we are saying that you should give up everything and surrender to Krsna. Therefore, there is no difference between Krsna's instruction and our instruction. There is no deviation. So if you receive knowledge in that perfect way, that is as good as receiving instruction directly from Krsna. But we don't change anything.

Bob: When I pray reverently, faithfully, does Krsna hear me?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: From me to Him?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, because He is within your heat He is always hearing you--whether you are praying or not praying. When you are doing some nonsense, He is also hearing you. And when you pray, that is very good--welcome.

Bob: To Krsna's ear, is praying louder than nonsense?

Srila Prabhupada: No. He is all-perfect. He can hear everything. Even if you don't speak, even if you simply think, "I shall do it," then He hears you. Sarvasya caham hrdi sannivistah: Krsna is seated in everyone's heart.

Bob: But one should pray--is that so?

Srila Prabhupada: That is his business--praying.

Bob: Whose business?

Srila Prabhupada: Every living entity's. That is the only business. Eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman. That is the statement of the Vedas.

Bob: What does that mean?

Srila Prabhupada: He supplies everything to everyone. He is supplying food to everyone. So He is the Father. So why should you not pray, "Father, give me this"? Just as in the Christian Bible there is, "Father, give us our daily bread." That is good--they are accepting the Supreme Father. But grown-up children should not ask from the father; rather, they should be prepared to serve the father. That is bhakti [devotion].

Bob: My questions you solve so nicely. [Everyone laughs with affection.]

Srila Prabhupada: Thank you very much.

Bob: So, should I ask you another question now?

Srila Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Yes!

 

                             Chapter Four

                      The Three Modes Of Nature

                    February 28, 1972 (continued)

 

                      The Three Modes Of Nature

 

Bob: I have read that there are three gunas--passion, ignorance and goodness--in life. I was wishing that you would explain this somewhat, especially what is meant by the mode of ignorance and the mode of goodness.

Srila Prabhupada: In goodness you can understand things--knowledge. You can know that there is God, that this world was created by Him, and so many things, actual things--the sun is this, the moon is this--perfect knowledge. If one has some knowledge, even though it may not be perfect, that is goodness. And in passion one identifies with his material body and tries to gratify his senses. That is passion. And ignorance is animal life--in ignorance, one does not know what is God, how to become happy, why we are in this world. For example, if you take an animal to the slaughterhouse, it will go. This is ignorance. But a man will protest. If a goat is to be killed after five minutes but you give it a morsel of grass, it is happy because it is eating. Just like a child--even if you are planning to kill her or kill him, he is happy and laughs because he is innocent. That is ignorance.

Bob: Being in these modes determines your karma. Is that correct?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. According to the association of the modes of nature, your activities are being contaminated.

 

                       karanam guna-sango 'sya

                        sad-asad-yoni-janmasu

 

   A man gets a higher birth or lower birth according to the association of the gunas, or the modes of nature.

Bob: So cheating and like that--what mode is that?

Srila Prabhupada: Cheating is mixed passion and ignorance. Suppose one man cheats another. That means he wants to obtain something; he is passionate. But if he commits murder, he does not know that he will have to suffer for it, so it is a mixture of passion and ignorance.

Bob: And what about when somebody helps another person?

Srila Prabhupada: That is goodness.

Bob: Why is that goodness? What intelligence is that? I mean--this represents knowledge of what? You said that goodness is when you have knowledge.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: Intelligence.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: So helping another person?

Srila Prabhupada: That means that he is ignorant and you are trying to enlighten him.

Bob: So giving intelligence...

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is goodness.

Bob: And what about just giving assistance?

Srila Prabhupada: That is also goodness.

Bob: If a beggar has nothing and you give him alms...

Srila Prabhupada: So that may still be goodness. But in your Bowery Street, they give some charity, and immediately he purchases one bottle of wine and drinks and lies down flat. [All laugh.] So that is charity. But that is not goodness; that is ignorance.

Bob: Charity is ignorance?

Srila Prabhupada: There are three kinds of charities--good, passionate and ignorant. Goodness is giving charity where charity must be given. Just like this Krsna consciousness movement--if anyone gives charity to this movement, that is goodness because it is spreading God consciousness, Krsna consciousness. That is goodness. And if one gives charity for some return, that is passion. And if somebody gives in charity in an improper place and time, without respect and to an unworthy person, just like the Bowery man, that is ignorance. But Krsna says:

 

                        yat karosi yad asnasi

                        yaj juhosi dadasi yat

 

   "All that you do, all that you eat, all that you offer and give away, as well as all austerities that you may perform, should be done as an offering unto Me." If Krsna takes, that is the perfection of charity. Or anyone who is a representative of Krsna--if he takes, that is perfection.

Bob: And what kind of charity is it when you give food to somebody who is hungry?

Srila Prabhupada: Well, that depends on the circumstances. For example, a doctor has forbidden his patient to take any solid food, and if the patient is asking, "Give me some solids," and if you give him solid food in charity, then you are not doing good to him. That is ignorance.

Bob: Are the devotees beyond accumulating karma? These devotees--do they feel karma? Do they work in these modes? Are they in the mode of goodness?

Srila Prabhupada: They are above goodness! Suddha-sattva. The devotees are not in this material world. They are in the spiritual world. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita:

 

                       mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena

                         bhakti-yogena sevate

                        sa gunan samatityaitan

                        brahma-bhuyaya kalpate

 

   ["One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstances, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman."] Devotees are neither in goodness, passion nor ignorance. They are transcendental to all these qualities.

Bob: A devotee who is very faithful reaches this stage?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Devotee... You can become a devotee as they have become. It is not difficult. Simply you have to engage yourself in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, that's all.

Bob: I wish to gain more knowledge of God and be able to feel God's presence more. The reason for this is because I feel life has little meaning without this.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes! If you miss this human form of life, then it is a great loss. That is a great chance given to the living entity to get out of the entanglement of material existence.

Bob: I feel thankful that I've been able to ask these questions...

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, you can learn more and more.

Bob: But I still have... my connections at home. Marriage is... I am engaged....

Srila Prabhupada: No, no. There are so many marriages. [He indicates Syamasundara.] He is married. Marriage is no barrier. I told you that there are four different orders of spiritual life--brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa. So after brahmacari life, one can marry. That is not obligatory. One may remain naisthika-brahmacari for his whole life. But a brahmacari can marry. And after marriage, there is vanaprastha life. This means that one is a little aloof from family--the husband and wife live separately. At that time there is no sex life. Then when he is fully renounced, detached from family life, he takes sannyasa,

Bob: Does somebody forget his wife completely then?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Forgetting is not very difficult, if you try to forget. Out of sight, out of mind. [All laugh.] Just as I have my wife, children, grandchildren--everything. But, out of sight, out of mind, that's all. Therefore, vanaprastha, sannyasa--everything is nicely arranged by the Vedic system.

 

                             Chapter Five

                            Becoming Pure

                          February 29, 1972

 

                            Becoming Pure

 

Bob: Thank you so much for allowing me to ask my questions.

Srila Prabhupada: That is my mission. People should understand the science of God. Unless we cooperate with the Supreme Lord, our life is baffled. I have given the example many times that a screw which has fallen from a machine has no value. But when the same screw is again attached to the machine, it has value. Similarly, we are part and parcel of God. So without God, what is our value? No value! We should again come back to our position of attachment to God. Then we have value.

Bob: I met a fellow today who came in the afternoon. His reason for coming--you may find it humorous--was that he heard the hippies were in Mayapur.

Srila Prabhupada: What?

Bob: He heard that hippies were in Mayapur. I was talking to him, and then some devotees were talking to him. He had said some things to me which I could find no answer for. And he said he would come back tomorrow and meet some devotees. But let me tell you what he said. This is confusing. When he was young--

Srila Prabhupada: He's Indian?

Bob: Yes, Indian. He lives nearby and speaks English fairly well. When he was young he worshiped Kali [a popular demigoddess] every day very rigorously, and then the floods came. When the floods came, the people saw hardship, and now he has no religion, and he says he finds his happiness in trying to develop love among people. And I couldn't think of what to say to him to add God and religion to his life. He says that after he dies, "maybe I'll become part of God, maybe not," but he can't worry about it now. He says he's tried these religious experiences, but they didn't work. One reason I ask this is because when I go back to America, a lot of people I come across are like this. They see that religion, like his worship of Kali or other kinds of religion they've experienced, doesn't work. And I don't know what to say to them to convince them it's worth trying.

Srila Prabhupada: Do not try at the present moment. You try to be convinced yourself.

Bob: Yes. I asked him to see devotees, but then on the way out, as he was leaving down the road, I met him again and told him, "Come back," but... Oh, I see.

Srila Prabhupada: You first of all be convinced. And then try to convince others. Caitanya Mahaprabhu's instruction is that you can improve the welfare of others when your own life is a success:

 

               bharata-bhumite haila manusya-janma yara

                janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara

 

   First make your life perfect. Then try to teach others.

Bob: The devotees have told me that without consciousness of Krsna all the time, you cannot be happy. But at times I feel happy.

Srila Prabhupada: At times. Not always.

Bob: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: But if you become Krsna conscious, you will feel happy always.

Bob: They had implied that you cannot feel happy without Krsna consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada: That is a fact. For example, if you are an animal of the land and you are thrown into the water, you cannot be happy in water in any condition. When you are again taken up a the land, then you'll be happy. Similarly, we are part and parcel of Krsna. We cannot be happy without being part and parcel of Krsna. The same example: the machine part, without the machine, has no value, but when it is again put into the machine it has value. We are part of Krsna; we must join Krsna. And you can join Krsna immediately by your consciousness, simply by thinking, "I am Krsna's, Krsna is mine:' That's all.

Bob: What is that? Krsna is...

Srila Prabhupada: Krsna is mine.

Bob: Mine?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Mine. My Krsna.

Bob: Ah.

Srila Prabhupada: Krsna is mine. Krsna is mine.

Bob: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: And I am Krsna's. That is our actual position.

Bob: We are part of Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Everything is part and parcel of Krsna. Because everything is generated by the energy of Krsna and everything is the energy of Krsna.

An Indian gentleman: Srila Prabhupada, I have one question. What is the status of service minus devotion?

Srila Prabhupada: Hm-m? That is not service, that is business. [Everyone laughs.] For example, here in Mayapur we have employed a contractor. That is not service--that is business. Is it not? Sometimes they will advertise, "Our customers are our masters." Is it not? But in spite of the flowery language--"Our customers are our masters"--this is business, because nobody is a qualified customer unless he pays. But service is not like that. Service--Caitanya Mahaprabhu prays to Krsna:

 

                   yatha tatha va vidadhatu lampato

                  mat-prana-nathas tu sa eva naparah

 

   "You do whatever You like, but still You are my worshipable Lord." That is service. "I don't ask any return from You." That is service. When you expect some return, that is business.

Bob: I wish to ask you to advise me on how I can come to feel closer to God. I'll be leaving you soon. And I'm--

Srila Prabhupada: You have to be purified.

Bob: I come to the temple at times, and then I leave, and I'm not sure how much I take with me.

Srila Prabhupada: It does not take much time. Within six months you will realize your progress. But you have to follow the regulative principles. Then it will be all right. Just like these boys and girls are doing.

Bob: Yes, I see.

Srila Prabhupada: They have no tendency for going to the cinema or going to a hotel. No. They have stopped all anarthas, all unnecessary things.

Bob: I--I feel that when I go back, they'll--

Srila Prabhupada: The whole human life is meant for purification.

Bob: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada:

 

                   tapo divyam putraka yena sattvam

              suddhyed yasmad brahma-saukhyam tv anantam

 

   Sattva means existence. So if you don't purify your existence, then you will have to change your body. From this body to that. Sometimes it may be higher, sometimes lower. For example, if you don't cure a disease, it can put you into trouble in so many ways. Similarly. if you don't purify your existence, then you will have to transmigrate from one body to another. There are very subtle laws of nature. Now there is no guarantee that you will get a very comfortable body or an American body. Therefore, it is essential for the human being to purify his existence. Unless you purify your existence, you will hanker after happiness but will not always be happy.

Bob: When I go to my job in New York, I hope I'll become pure, but I'm sure that I won't become as pure as your devotees here. I--I don't see myself doing that.

Srila Prabhupada: You can do as they are doing. They were not pure in the beginning; now they are pure. Similarly. you can become pure. For example, in your childhood you were not educated--but now you are educated.

Bob: So, what are the things that I may do? When I go back, I must--

Srila Prabhupada: When do you go back?

Bob: I'll be going back to Chaibasa to do my work there, and...

Srila Prabhupada: What is there in Chaibasa?

Bob: That is where I do my teaching. I live there.

   want to see everyone happy. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. People do not know how to become happy. They do not take the standard path to become happy. They manufacture their own way. That is the difficulty. Therefore, Rsabhadeva gave this advice to his sons: "My dear boys, just undergo austerity for transcendental realization." Everyone is performing austerity. This boy I know--he had to go to a foreign country to learn commercial management. Now he is well situated. In this way. everyone must undergo some austerity for future life. So why not take that austerity for permanent happiness? You have to purify your existence and your body. As many times as you accept a material body, you will have to change it. But as soon as you get a spiritual body, there is no question of change. You already have a spiritual body. Now, due to our material contamination, we are developing the material body. But if we associate with spiritual life, then we shall develop a spiritual body. The same example I have several times given is that if you put an iron rod within fire, it will become like fire. Is it not?

Bob: Put the iron rod into fire?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and it will become like fire.

Bob: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: Although iron.

Bob: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: Similarly, if you always keep yourself spiritually engaged, your body will act spiritually, although it is material. The same example: when an iron rod is red-hot, touch it anywhere, and it will burn. It takes on the quality of fire. Similarly, if you always keep yourself in Krsna consciousness, then you will become spiritualized. You will act spiritually. No more material demands.

Bob: How do I do this?

Srila Prabhupada: This process. They are doing it. You have seen these boys, our six boys who have been initiated today. It is very simple. You have to follow the four restrictive regulations and chant these beads. Very easy.

Bob: Well, but, see--when I am back in Bihar and following my lifestyle there, I--if I follow all these regulative principles--some I follow now, but not all--

Srila Prabhupada: "Some" means... ?

Bob: "Some"?

Srila Prabhupada: There are only four regulative principles. "Some" means three, or two?

Bob: Two or three.

Srila Prabhupada: So why not the other one?

Bob: No, no. I mean I follow one or two. One or two I follow now.

Srila Prabhupada: [Laughs.] Why not the other three? What is the difficulty? Which one do you follow?

Bob: Which one do I follow? Well, I'm almost vegetarian, but I eat eggs.

Srila Prabhupada: Then that is also not complete.

Bob: No, not even complete. Since last time [November], I've become vegetarian, but...

Srila Prabhupada: Vegetarian is no qualification.

Bob: Not much.

Srila Prabhupada: The pigeon is vegetarian. The monkey is vegetarian--the most rubbish creature...

Bob: Well...

Srila Prabhupada: The monkey is vegetarian. This naked sannyasi lives in the forest... the most mischievous...

Bob: I--I felt that it was a little bit of progress because it was somewhat difficult at first, then easy, and I had returned to--

Srila Prabhupada: No, you can stick to all the regulative principles, provided you take to the Krsna consciousness process--otherwise it is not possible.

Bob: Yes, this is it. I have--when I'm back in Bihar, and--um--my friends may say... We're sitting in the evening, and there's nothing to do but fight mosquitoes, and they say, "How about smoking some marijuana?" And I say, "Sure, there's nothing else to do;" and then I sit down, and I enjoy myself for the evening. Now we did this, we got carried away. we were doing it every day and realizing we were hurting ourselves and stopped, but still on occasion we...

Srila Prabhupada: You have to live with us. Then your friends will not ask you, "What about marijuana?" [Bob laughs.] Keep the association of devotees. We are opening centers to give people a chance to associate with us. Why have we taken so much land [in Mayapur]? Those who are seriously desirous--they will come and live with us. Association is very influential. If you associate with drunkards, you become drunk; if you associate with sadhus, then you become a sadhu.

Syamasundara: He can come and stay with you in Bombay.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, you can stay with us in Bombay. But he wants friends with marijuana. That is the difficulty.

Bob: Let me ask you about something else; then maybe I'll come back to this. I find that I think of myself too much, and this way I can't think of God so much. I think of myself in too many places. How can I forget about myself so I can concentrate on other, more important things?

Srila Prabhupada: As they [the devotees] have done.

Bob: [Laughs.] You are saying to me that my path--I think what you're saying is that my path to purity is to become a devotee.

Srila Prabhupada: Do you hesitate?

Bob: Well, I...

Srila Prabhupada: Is it very difficult to become a devotee?

Bob: For myself--it is. I--I don't feel so much the desire. First the devotees tell me that they have given up material life. These four regulative principles, they have explained to me, mean giving up material life, and that I see. And in place of this they have...

Srila Prabhupada: What do you mean by material life? [Bob is silent] I am sitting on this bed. Is it material or spiritual?

Bob: Material.

Srila Prabhupada: Then how have we given up material life?

Bob: I think how I interpreted it was "a desire for our material gains..."

Srila Prabhupada: What is material?

Bob: Working towards material gains and not giving up all materials.

Srila Prabhupada: Material life means--when you desire to gratify your senses, that is material life. And when you desire to serve God, that is spiritual life. That is the difference between material life and spiritual life. Now we are trying to serve our senses. But instead of serving the senses, when we serve God, that is spiritual life. What is the difference between our activities and others, activities? We are using everything--table, chair, bed, tape recorder, typewriter--so what is the difference? The difference is that we are using everything for Krsna.

Bob: The devotees have said that the sensual pleasures they have given up are replaced with spiritual kinds of pleasures, but--see--I haven't felt this.

Srila Prabhupada: Spiritual pleasures come when you desire to please Krsna. That is spiritual pleasure. For example, a mother is more pleased by feeding her son. She's not eating, but when she sees that her son is eating very nicely, then she becomes pleased.

Bob: Hmm-m. Spiritual pleasure, then, is pleasing God.

Srila Prabhupada: Spiritual pleasure means the pleasure of Krsna.

Bob: Pleasing Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Material pleasure means the Pleasure of the senses. That's all. This is the difference. When you simply try to please Krsna, that is spiritual pleasure.

Bob: I had viewed this as--my thought of pleasing God was to--

Srila Prabhupada: Don't manufacture your ways of Pleasing God. Don't manufacture. Suppose I want to please you. Then I shall ask you, "How can I serve you?" Not that I manufacture some service. That is not pleasing. Suppose I want a glass of water. If you concoct the idea, "Swamiji will be more pleased if I give him a glass of milk, hot milk," that will not please me. If you want to please me, then you should ask me, "How can I Please you?" And if you do what I order, that will please me.

Bob: And pleasing Krsna, then, is being a devotee of Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada: A devotee is one who is always pleasing Krsna. He has no other business. That is a devotee.

Bob: Can you tell me some more about chanting Hare Krsna? I have for quite some time chanted, but never regularly--just a little bit here and there. I just got beads very recently, and once in a while I feel comfortable chanting, and once in a while not comfortable at all. Maybe I don't chant Properly. I don't know.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, everything has a process. You have to adopt the process.

Bob: The devotees tell me of the ecstasy they feel when chanting.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, the more you become purified, the more you will feel ecstasy. This chanting process is the purifying process.

 

                             Chapter Six

                         The Perfect Devotee

                      February 29, 1972, evening

 

                         The Perfect Devotee

 

Syamasundara: Srila Prabhupada, this afternoon we were discussing austerities.

Srila Prabhupada: Mm?

Syamasundara: If we don't practice austerities voluntarily, then we must involuntarily practice some austerities.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, under the direction of the spiritual master one should... You have no mind to follow austerities, but when you accept a spiritual master, you have to carry out his order. That is austerity.

Syamasundara: Even if you don't want to practice austerity, you must.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, you must. Because you have surrendered to your spiritual master, his order is final. So even if you don't like it, you have to do it. To please me.

Syamasundara: Ah.

Srila Prabhupada: But you don't like... [He laughs.] Nobody likes to fast, but the spiritual master says, "Today, fasting," so what can be done? [Syamasundara laughs.] A disciple is one who has voluntarily agreed to be disciplined by the spiritual master. That is austerity.

Syamasundara: Say, like our parents or many people in the material world, completely enamored by the material life--they don't want to undergo austerity or bodily pain, but still they must. They are being forced by nature to suffer austerities.

Srila Prabhupada: That is forced austerity. That is not good. Voluntary austerity will help.

Syamasundara: If you don't undergo voluntary austerity, then you must be forced to undergo austerity.

Srila Prabhupada: That is the difference between man and animal. An animal cannot accept austerity. But a man can accept it. There is a nice foodstuff in the confectioner's shop, so a man wants to eat it, but he sees that he has no money, so he can restrain himself. But when a cow comes, immediately she pushes her mouth in. You can beat her with a stick, but she will tolerate it. She will do that. Therefore an animal cannot undergo austerity. Our austerity is very nice. We chant Hare Krsna, dance, and Krsna sends very nice foodstuffs, and we eat. That's all. Why are your people not agreeable to such austerity? Chanting, dancing and eating nicely?

Bob: What is that?

Srila Prabhupada: Because we are following austerities, Krsna sends us nice things. So we are not losers. When you become Krsna-ized, then you get more comforts than at the present moment. That's a fact. I have been living alone for the last twenty years, but I have no difficulties. Before taking sannyasa I was living in Delhi. So I had no difficulties, although I was living alone.

Syamasundara: If you don't accept spiritual discipline, then nature will force so many calamities.

Srila Prabhupada: Oh, yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita:

 

                        daivi hy esa guna-mayi

                         mama maya duratyaya

                        mam eva ye prapadyante

                        mayam etam taranti te

 

   ["This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it."] Maya is imposing so many difficulties, but as soon as you surrender to Krsna, no more imposition.

Syamasundara: We were so foolish that we were always thinking, "In the future I'll be happy."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is maya, illusion. That is like the ass. You sit down on the back of the ass and just take a morsel of grass. The ass is thinking, "Let me go forward a little, and I shall get the grass." [Bob laughs.] But it is always one foot distant. That is ass-ism. [They all laugh.] Everyone is thinking, "Let me go a little forward, and I'll get it. I'll be very happy."

Bob: I... I thank you so much for...

Srila Prabhupada: Hmm?

Bob: Tomorrow I'll have to leave you and--

Srila Prabhupada: Don't talk l-e-a-v-e, but talk l-i-v-e.

Bob: I cannot yet, but I was thinking now of returning tomorrow to my town. But...

Srila Prabhupada: Don't return.

Bob: I should stay here tomorrow--here?

Srila Prabhupada: Stay here.

Bob: You tell me to, I'll stay.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, you are a very good boy. [There is a long pause. It is now, much quieter.] It is very simple. When the living entities forget Krsna, they are in this material world. Krsna means His name, His form, His abode, His pastimes--everything.

Bob: What was that last?

Srila Prabhupada: Ah? Pastimes.

Bob: Pastimes.

Srila Prabhupada: When we speak of a king, it means the king's government, king's palace, king's queen, king's sons, secretaries, military strength--everything. Is it not?

Bob: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: Similarly, Krsna being the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as soon as we think of Krsna, this means all the energies of Krsna. That is complete by saying, "Radha-Krsna." Radha represents all the energy of Krsna. And Krsna is the Supreme Lord. So when we speak of Krsna, the living entities are also included because the living entities are energies, different energies of Krsna--superior energy. So when this energy is not serving the energetic, that is material existence. The whole world is not serving Krsna. They are serving Krsna in a different way. They are serving indirectly, just as disobedient citizens serve the government indirectly. Prisoners come to the prison house on account of their disobedience of the laws of the state. So, in the prison house, they are forced to obey the laws of the state. Similarly. all the living entities here are godless, either by ignorance or by choice. They do not like to accept the supremacy of God. Demoniac. So we are trying to bring them to their original condition. That is the Krsna consciousness movement.

Bob: I'd like to ask you just something I talked with devotees about--medicine. I walked to the river with some devotees today. I have a cold, so I said I shouldn't go in the water. Some felt I should because it is the Ganges, and some said I shouldn't because I have a cold, and we were talking, and I don't understand. Do we get sick because of our bad actions in the past?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that's a fact.

Bob: But when one...

Srila Prabhupada: Any kind of distress we suffer is due to our impious activities in the past.

Bob: But when someone is removed from karmic influence...

Srila Prabhupada: Yes?

Bob: ... does he still get sick?

Srila Prabhupada: No. Even if he gets sick, that is very temporary. For instance, this fan is moving. If you disconnect the electric power, then the fan will move for a moment. That movement is not due to the electric current. That is force--what is it called, physically, this force?

Syamasundara: Momentum.

Srila Prabhupada: Momentum. But as soon as it stops, no more movement. Similarly, even if a devotee who has surrendered to Krsna is suffering from material consequences, that is temporary. Therefore, a devotee does not take any material miseries as miseries. He takes them as Krsna's, God's, mercy.

Bob: A perfected soul, a devotee, a pure devotee...

Srila Prabhupada: A perfected soul is one who engages twenty-four hours a day in Krsna consciousness. That is perfection. That is a transcendental position. Perfection means to engage in one's original consciousness. That is perfection. That is stated in Bhagavad-gita:

 

                      sve sve karmany abhiratah

                       samsiddhim labhate narah

 

   "By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect." Complete perfection. Samsiddhi. Siddhi is perfection. That is Brahman realization, spiritual realization. And samsiddhi means devotion, which comes after Brahman realization.

Bob: Could you just say that last thing again please?

Srila Prabhupada: Samsiddhi.

Bob: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: Sam means complete.

Bob: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: And siddhi means perfection. In the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that one who goes back home, back to Godhead, has attained the complete perfection. So perfection comes when one realizes that he is not this body; he is spirit soul. Brahma-bhuta--that is called Brahman realization. That is perfection. And samsiddhi comes after Brahman realization, when one engages in devotional service. Therefore if one is already engaged in devotional service, it is to be understood that Brahman realization is there. Therefore it is called samsiddhi.

Bob: I ask you this very humbly, but do you feel diseases and sickness?

Srila Prabhupada: Hm-m?

Bob: Do you personally feel disease and sickness?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: Is this a result of your past karma?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: So one in this material world never escapes his karma completely?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, he escapes. No more karma for a devotee. No more karmic reaction.

Bob: But you must be the best devotee.

Srila Prabhupada: Hm-m... No, I don't consider myself the best devotee. I am the lowest.

Bob: No!

Srila Prabhupada: You are the best devotee.

Bob: [Laughs.] Oh, no, no! But, see, you say--what you say... always seems right.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: Then you must be the best devotee.

Srila Prabhupada: The thing is that even the best devotee, when he preaches, comes to the second-class platform of a devotee.

Bob: What would the best devotee be doing?

Srila Prabhupada: The best devotee does not preach.

Bob: What does he do?

Srila Prabhupada: He sees that there is no need of preaching. For him, everyone is a devotee. [Bob laughs heartily] Yes, he sees no more nondevotees--all devotees. He is called an uttama-adhikari. But while I am preaching, how can I say I am the best devotee? Just like Radharani--She does not see anyone as a nondevotee. Therefore we try to approach Radharani.

Bob: Who is this?

Srila Prabhupada: Radharani, Krsna's consort.

Bob: Ah.

Srila Prabhupada: If anyone approaches Radharani, She recommends to Krsna, "Here is the best devotee. He is better than Me," and Krsna cannot refuse him. That is the best devotee. But it is not to be imitated: "I have become the best devotee."

 

                         isvare tad-adhinesu

                         balisesu dvisatsu ca

                        prema-maitri-krpopeksa

                       yah karoti sa madhyamah

 

                                                       (Bhag. 11.2.46)

   A second-class devotee has the vision that some are envious of God, but this is not the vision of the best devotee. The best devotee sees, "Nobody is envious of God. Everyone is better than me." Just like Caitanya-caritamrta's author, Krsnadasa Kaviraja. He says, "I am lower than the worm in the stool."

Bob: Who is saying this?

Srila Prabhupada: Krsnadasa Kaviraja, the author of Caitanya-caritamrta: purisera kita haite muni se laghistha. He is not making a show. He is feeling like that. "I am the lowest. Everyone is best, but I am the lowest. Everyone is engaged in Krsna's service. I am not engaged." Caitanya Mahaprabhu said "Oh, I have not a pinch of devotion to Krsna. I cry to make a show. If I had been a devotee of Krsna, I would have died long ago. But I am living. That is the proof that I do not love Krsna." That is the vision of the best devotee. He is